ALERT: This is a Mandarin-language episode! We have had a number of wonderful guests already, but we wanted to bring more voices from China to the discussion and talk with them in Mandarin. Hosts Winslow Robertson and Dr. Nkemjika Kalu had Hangwei Li, a researcher and media trainer from Mediane, Council of Europe (and also contributor to podcast sponsor The Africa Daily) interview two amazing guests. One is Ms. Yolanda Xiaoqing Yue, a tech entrepreneur and graduate of the Cambridge Judge Business School who used to work for Huawei in South Africa. Next is Ms. Yuan Wang, a Harvard graduate who is currently working for the Sino Africa Centre of Excellence Foundation in Kenya. We will have a translation up soon, but tell your Chinese friends to listen!
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Translation (by Tendai Musakwa)
Li
Hangwei: Good morning everyone. Thank you for listening to
the Cowries & Rice Podcast. My name is Hangwei, and I am this episode's
guest host. Regular listeners will know that we usually use English for our
podcasts, but this will be our first Chinese podcast. Your regular host Winslow
will still participate in the show, though. Let's have him greet everyone as
usual: Hi Winslow! How are you?
Winslow: I'm
quite well. The weather is really nice today, so I'm hoping to go outside when
I finish this podcast.
Li
Hangwei: Our regular co-host Dr. Kalu, who is a researcher
of Africa-China relations, will also participate in today’s show. Dr. Kalu,
greetings from London. How was your week?
Dr.
Kalu: It was really good, thank you very much. How are you?
Li
Hangwei: I'm fine, thanks. This is going to be our first
Chinese episode. I hope hearing us speak Chinese won’t make you uncomfortable.
But I have great news for you: we have amazing guests and I'm sure this will be
an awesome episode!
Winslow: I
agree!
Li
Hangwei: OK! We are working hard to reach a wider global
audience, so from now on our podcast will not only have English-language
podcasts, but will also have Chinese- and French-language episodes.
First, a word of thanks to our sponsors AfricanDevelopment Jobs and the Africa Daily. African
Development Jobs is a site that was founded by Nina Oduro that aims to help jobseekers
find work in Africa. African Development Jobs is one of the best sites focusing
on employment and development in Africa that I know.
The Africa
Daily is an internet platform for the provision of English-language news
and research-related information on Africa-China relations. Its
Chinese-language version is 非洲365,
which is a website dedicated to delivering the latest information on
developments in African countries in an effort to increase Chinese readers’
interest in and understanding of Africa, assist in the development of
Africa-China cooperation, promote visits to and exchanges with Africa as well
as encourage export-oriented Chinese small- and medium-sized enterprises to
invest in Africa.
International Women's Day was celebrated recently,
so we felt that we should discuss women’s issues in this podcast. But please
don’t get the wrong idea — this episode won’t be like some after-hours
relationship advice show. Rather, today’s discussion will focus on Asian women
in Africa. We also explored this topic on our last episode,
which featured a number of Africa-China relations researchers as guests. Today,
we have invited some young practitioners to share their views on the topic.
I have a feeling that today’s show — with four
women’s voices — will be similar to traditional Chinese opera. Winslow will be
left just listening to us perform.
Today’s guests have one thing in common: they are
both goddesses of learning. How learned are they? One of them graduated from
Harvard and the other graduated from Cambridge. They have also taken what many
people may regard as an unusual path in life. After one of our guests Wang Yuan
graduated from Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government she went to the Kenyan capital
Nairobi, where she currently works as a researcher for the Sino-Africa Center
for Excellence Foundation. She also researches China-Africa issues for the
European Union, and started a new community-based public welfare NGO called
China House. Our other guest Yue Xiaoqing also has a remarkable story: after
graduating from college, she found a job and was immediately dispatched to
South Africa. She unexpectedly resigned from that job after six years to go
study for an MBA at Cambridge, even though the job paid well and offered good
prospects for advancement. After obtaining her degree, she adamantly returned
to South Africa.
Welcome to our show Wang Yuan and Yue Xiaoqing.
Wang Yuan, why don’t you greet our listeners and introduce yourself.
Wang
Yuan: Hello everyone. My name is Wang Yuan. Thank you Hangwei. I am currently
in Kenya. Greetings to everyone from faraway. Everything here is alright,
including the weather — it’s very warm.
Li
Hangwei: It’s very warm? [Laughs.]
Wang
Yuan: Yes, it’s like spring all year round. Let me briefly introduce myself;
after graduating from college, I enrolled in a two-year [MPA] program at the
Kennedy School of Government, after which I developed an interest in Africa.
This interest led me to book a one-way ticket to Kenya after graduating from
the program. After arriving here with my three suitcases, I spent the next
seven to eight months looking for a job until I found work doing research on
China-Africa relations. I’ve been doing that job ever since.
Li
Hangwei: Awesome! Thank you Wang Yuan. Now, Xiaoqing, what
have you been doing in South Africa? Which city are you in? Please give our
listeners an overview of your recent experiences.
Yue
Xiaoqing: Hello everyone. I currently live in Johannesburg,
but I frequently travel to other cities on business. The company that hired me
after I graduated from college assigned me to go work in South Africa. I
resigned from that job in 2011, after which I went to Cambridge to study for an
MBA degree, as Li Hangwei mentioned. I graduated from Cambridge last August and
returned to South Africa, first working for a friend’s company, which was
expanding from South Africa to other African countries. That friend couldn’t be
in South Africa at that time, so I temporarily took over management of the
company for them until the end of the year, gaining some experience in
management and administration in the process.
I am currently starting my own company that will be
geared towards helping South African companies purchase equipment from China. Together
with some friends, I am also setting up an e-commerce site focusing on water
treatment; as everyone knows, water resources and water usage are areas of
concern in Africa. I’ve been making satisfactory progress on both of these two
projects.
Li Hangwei: OK,
I’m glad to hear that both of you are doing well, and that you have found
practical applications for your studies. Both of your educational backgrounds
are interesting, but I’d first like to ask Wang Yuan why she chose to go to
Africa after graduating from Harvard. You graduated from Harvard’s Kennedy
School of Government — which, I have to say, was my dream school — and I know
you have strong capabilities that would have allowed you to find a good job in
the US or in China. What made you go to Africa instead?
Wang
Yuan: Actually, I have also been thinking about why I decided to come to Africa
back then, and why I mindlessly decided to buy a one-way ticket to come here.
Li
Hangwei: Do you regret it?
Wang
Yuan: Not at all. It’s just that I can’t give you a clear-cut answer to that
question. All I can say is that at that time I was young and didn’t have too
many responsibilities, so I thought I should travel the world, visit all 54
countries in Africa and climb Mt. Kilimanjaro—
Li
Hangwei: That makes me also want to go to Africa. [Laughs.]
Wang
Yuan: —You should consider it. I was also thinking that I would only be able to
spend time in this tranquil and non-materialistic kind of place while I was
young and had just graduated from college. So I came here after graduation. I
didn’t have any grand plan.
Li
Hangwei: As many people have said, there are many things
that you won’t have the courage to do when you're older if you don’t do them
when you’re young. Although Xiaoqing and Wang Yuan both graduated from top
schools, other aspects of their backgrounds are different. I have already
mentioned that Xiaoqing went to South Africa immediately after graduating from
college and stayed there for six years before resigning and going to pursue a
postgraduate degree. Xiaoqing, why did you resign from your job? And why did
you choose to return to South Africa after graduating from Cambridge?
Yue
Xiaoqing: I resigned because I didn’t like my job and the
way I was living. I had been living the life of a typical science and
engineering student from a young age. My first job was in the information and
communications technology industry, concentrating on technologies and
solutions. I was basically living the life of your typical “IT nerd,” although
some geographical and cultural aspects were different because I was in South
Africa. I felt that I was living a dull, monotonous and restricted life.
I chose to do an MBA because the focus areas of
such a course — including finance, accounting and management — were areas that
I could not learn while holding a full-time job. I wanted to learn something
new, and broaden my horizons. I chose to study at Cambridge because of its
historical heritage and cultural atmosphere, but I never wanted to stay in the
UK after graduation.
I liked South Africa and wanted to go back because
of South African culture and the climate here. I think Johannesburg has the
best climate of all the cities I have ever lived in; the sunshine here leaves
you in a good mood everyday. In terms of culture, South Africa is a pluralistic
society, perhaps because of its history of immigration and colonization. People
here are very friendly and welcoming. On one hand, South Africa has that sort
of orderliness that is brought about by colonization, but on the other hand it
also has that African conviviality and passion. I don’t like the climate in the
UK. Although people there are polite and considerate, they are also somewhat
aloof. So it was only natural that I should come back to South Africa. I really
didn’t have a choice.
Li
Hangwei: So it’s like true love. Actually, I am also
currently in London, and am having an experience similar to the one that you
had. But I’m glad to hear that you enjoy living in the Rainbow Nation. I think
both you and Wang Yuan have had very interesting experiences. I am curious to
hear more about your educational experiences — Wang Yuan about your experience
studying in the US and Xiaoqing about your experience studying for an MBA at
Cambridge. How have these experiences influenced your current lives and jobs?
Wang Yuan, why don’t you respond first?
Wang
Yuan: I think the US is a very multicultural society and the Kennedy School of
Government — which has students from more than 80 countries — also stresses the
importance of pluralism. As a result, I learned how to interact with and form
relationships with people from different backgrounds while I was there. I have
used this skill here in Kenya, where I have befriended people from all walks of
life including artists, people who live in slums and people who work for the
World Bank. I think that these experiences have made my life more pluralistic.
I also made a lot of friends at the Kennedy School that I am now in contact
with here in Nairobi. We have our own alumni association and often go out
together—
Li
Hangwei: —Harvard has an alumni association in Kenya?
Wang
Yuan: Yes. We regularly organize events and socialize. Besides friends from
Harvard, I’ve also befriended people from all walks of life — I think this is
very important.
Li
Hangwei: You mean that you enjoy broadening your social
circle by interacting with different people, right?
Wang
Yuan: Right. To be honest, I have already forgotten most of the statistics,
economics and other courses I learned while at Harvard. But the confidence, the
ability to adapt and the ability to befriend different people that I learned
while I was there are skills that are hard to come by, and I will always
treasure them.
Li
Hangwei: I also think that those are valuable skills to
have. Xiaoqing, what influence did your experience studying at Cambridge have
on your current work? You mentioned that you’re looking to start your own
company. Your MBA studies at Cambridge must be very helpful with this, right?
Yue Xiaoqing: Yes.
Before I went to the UK, I was somewhat disadvantaged by not having lived in a
developed country for a substantial length of time. So I didn’t know whether or
not I would enjoy living in Britain. Before I went to study for the MBA, I was
leaning towards returning to South Africa after my studies, but the year that I
spent in the UK confirmed to me what kind of life I wanted to live.
As I said before, I undertook the MBA program in
order to improve my understanding in certain areas in which I lacked knowledge.
So although studying for the program was very stressful, I enrolled in it
anyway in order to improve my abilities. I mentioned before that my life before
the MBA was very monotonous — it was difficult for me to find topics of
discussion with other people. But now I’m as multifaceted as Tiger Balm, I know
a little bit about everything—
Li
Hangwei: —And I think you’re a brilliant
conversationalist. You’re very eloquent.
Yue
Xiaoqing: Yes, that might be because I now talk to a larger
number of people than I did before.
Although my educational background is in the
applied sciences, the MBA gave me the ability to quickly understand different
fields. And now I am able to find topics of conversation with people from
different industries that I interact with. So the MBA has definitely helped my
career.
In addition to the classes on accounting, finance
and management that I took as part of my MBA, I also took courses on
entrepreneurship, including practice-based courses on how to start a business.
This, together with the experience I had running my friend’s company after I
returned from finishing my MBA, has given me a thorough understanding of how to
organize and operate a business, including the risks involved in doing so.
I also think that the MBA gave me the ability to fuse
together the different operating methods that Western and Eastern companies
use. For example, Western companies have good institutionalization as a result
of the West’s longer corporate management experience. If we combine this aspect
of Western companies with Chinese firms’ flexibility and culture of persistence
and industriousness, that would create an optimum corporate culture. So I think
the MBA experience was hugely beneficial to me.
Li
Hangwei: OK. Talking to you makes me think of the time I
spent in Ghana. Back then, I also met people from different walks of life, and
I think this was also very beneficial to me. But I cannot help but also think
that when I was in Ghana, the relations between Ghanaians and Chinese were
rather tense because of the Ghanian government’s crackdown on illegal gold
mining. This affected my experience while I was living there. So I want to ask
you two whether or not the relations between China and Kenya and China and
South Africa have influenced your lives there. Wang Yuan, why don’t you respond
first?
Wang
Yuan: Relations between China and Kenya are quite good, but I haven’t noticed
China-Kenya ties having much influence on my day-to-day life. The number of
Chinese companies operating in Kenya has increased and there are more Chinese
people working here. I haven’t really seen any tensions in China-Kenya
relations, but it is becoming more and more difficult to get a work visa.
Li
Hangwei: Do you know why?
Wang Yuan: It’s similar to the situation in the US
where outsiders are seen as seizing all the job opportunities, so there
naturally is a trend toward work visas becoming more difficult to obtain.
Li
Hangwei: Xiaoqing, what is the situation there?
Yue
Xiaoqing: It seems that the situation in South Africa is
similar to the situation Wang Yuan described as happening in Kenya; I’ve heard
that South Africa has stopped processing permanent residency applications by
Chinese people. But this is a rumor that I haven’t confirmed.
In terms of China-South Africa ties, I don’t think
that China’s relationship with South Africa has had any direct influence on me.
At the same time, China and South Africa have had good relations from the time
they first established diplomatic relations. Because South Africa is China’s
biggest trading partner in Africa and is also part of BRICS, there are many
interactions between the two countries and trade between them has been growing
rapidly.
I personally have not had problems obtaining a visa
because I work in the information and communications technology industry, and
visa applications for professionals in this industry are processed under South
Africa’s Exceptional Skills Work Permit program. I know that South Africa has
somewhat lax requirements when processing visas for investors and highly skilled
workers.
Li
Hangwei: I recently read a column by Zhang Zhuoyan — one
of Wang Yuan’s classmates who chose to go to South Africa after graduating from
the Harvard Kennedy School — on the China-South Dialogue website. She is also
based in Johannesburg, and in the column she said something that struck me:
“Africa is not for cowards. You will not have anyone to depend on and will be
lucky to find a companion. You have to be determined and resolute while also
remaining kindhearted.” As I read this, I thought to myself that I should ask
you both what the biggest problems you have faced while living and working in
Africa have been. And how did you overcome them?
Wang
Yuan: Should I speak first?
Li
Hangwei: Xiaoqing can also speak first, whatever you prefer.
Wang
Yuan: Xiaoqing, why don’t you go first?
Yue
Xiaoqing: Actually, I don’t think I’ve faced any
considerable difficulty. I’m the kind of person who doesn’t constantly look
back at things that have happened and doesn’t consider my past experiences as
terrible. I think if you tell yourself that you are not weak and you are not
feeble, you will not consider bad things that happen to you as extremely
difficult. There is, however, a certain time after I fell sick in Africa that I
felt myself to be a little frail. That was after I got sick with malaria after
not taking reasonable precautions while on a business trip—
Li
Hangwei: —Were you traveling in West Africa?
Yue
Xiaoqing: No, I had gone on a trip to Uganda.
Unfortunately, one of my colleagues had malaria. As everyone knows, malaria is
spread through mosquitos; when I went to visit the colleague, I was
unfortunately bitten by mosquitoes and I got sick that way. I didn’t suffer
much during the time that I was sick because many of my friends and co-workers
were taking care of me. But malaria damages the body for a long time after
you’re actually sick with it, so I was in poor health for a year after I had
fallen ill with it; I always felt like sleeping and was always in low spirits.
I had to put off many of my plans. For example, I had planned to start the MBA
in 2009 but it was only until 2011 that I felt well enough to do so. So, now I
pay more attention to getting enough exercise and otherwise ensuring that I am
healthy. After all, the body is the capital needed for revolution.
Li
Hangwei: Yes, this counts as deriving some good out of
misfortune.
Yue
Xiaoqing: Yes. I think this was the only incident when I
faced unforeseen difficulty while in Africa.
Li
Hangwei: Actually, I think people face all kinds of
difficulty whether they are in China or abroad in Asia, Africa, Europe or other
places. If you’re determined enough, you can persevere through difficulty. Wang
Yuan, have you faced any hardship that you found difficult to overcome?
Wang
Yuan: I have: when I first arrived I was very lonely because I didn’t have any
friends. Back when I was in Cambridge — the city where Harvard is located, near
Boston — I had a nice group of friends that included Zhuoyan and some other
people. I became used to the kind of life that we had there — we would call
each other after class and set aside time to go out together in the evenings.
Because of this, I found it very difficult after I came here and couldn’t call
up my friends or contact them on WeChat liked I used to because of time
differences.
Li
Hangwei: Is that why you and Huang Hongxiang set up
China-South Dialogue?
Wang
Yuan: Yes, I wanted to make some friends. [Laughs.]
Li
Hangwei: Huang Hongxiang calls it “a human trafficking
project.”
Wang
Yuan: [Laughs.] His vocabulary is a bit gauche.
Li
Hangwei: So you’re hoping more talented young Chinese
people will join in, right?
Wang
Yuan: I wouldn’t say we’re looking for talented people. We’re looking for
people from all walks of life to come and interact with each other. Everyone
can contribute something.
Today, we set up a small society for young people
in Nairobi to interact with each other. This has made me very happy — it’s much
better than what we had before.
Li
Hangwei: Great. I wish you all the best. Perhaps there’ll
come a time when I can visit you there.
Wang
Yuan: Please do.
Li
Hangwei: OK. I also want to ask you when you are happiest
and the most satisfied in your everyday lives.
Wang
Yuan: I am happiest when, for example,
I’m sitting at home after taking half the day off and receive an unexpected
business offer. Also, when good friends visit — I always feel great when that
happens. I also like the feeling I have when I have sorted out some aspect of
my life. I think it’s those moments in life that make you happy. I like that
quote by Hemingway “The world is a fucked up place, but it’s worth fighting
for” (sic). I like to change that
quote to say that the world is fucked up, but life is still worth living for.
Those moments of happiness are worth living for.
Li
Hangwei: This just made me think about when I was in
Africa. During that time, I was very happy — I was easily satisfied and was
often in a good mood. Xiaoqing, are you having a similar experience?
Yue
Xiaoqing: Yes. I really like South Africa. I like it
because there are many outdoor activities like hiking. Recently, we went on a
waterfall zip-line tour where we slid across a waterfall and saw a long rainbow
that formed over the water. It was very beautiful. Whenever I am on a business
trip, I always make sure that I drive out to see the scenery or go hiking on
the weekends. This is very interesting for me.
Also, in my current job, I meet all sorts of people
from different industries who tell me many novel things. All of this makes me
very happy.
In my future endeavors, I aim to help people change
their lives by raising their quality and standard of living — like Wang Yuan’s
group and other non-governmental organizations are doing. Being able to do this
would be a confirmation of the values I hold dear and would make me very happy.
But there is still some uncertainty as to whether I will be able to do this.
Let me end there for now.
Li
Hangwei: I think people might have this stereotypical idea
that living and working in Africa is grueling, dreary and contemptible, but I
don’t think that that is the case.
I also wanted to share something that my flatmate
said to me yesterday evening. We were in the kitchen and my flatmate, who is
not from China, asked me whether or not I was older than 25. When I replied
that I was, she told me that she had just read an article about China’s
“leftover women” that said that Chinese people considered women who were older
than 25 and not married to be “leftover women.” My flatmate then sighed and
said, “So you’re one of those ‘leftover women’ that Chinese people talk about.”
I have always been against labeling people, but
that conversation with my roommate made me think of how one of the major
challenges that a Chinese woman of marrying age who wants to pursue a career in
Africa might face is how to persuade her parents of her decision. Perhaps our
guests can share their experiences on this topic? Were you able to convince
your parents that coming to Africa was a good decision? Wang Yuan, why don’t
you respond first?
Wang
Yuan: I think that I still have to wait three or four more years before I am at
the proper age for marriage; I think I am still very young and this is what I
tell my parents. Of course I’m no longer that young, but I tell myself that I
am still young. [Laughter.]
Of course my parents want me to find a stable job in
China and find a husband from a respectable family, but what they care about
most is my happiness. They understand me and think that maybe I am happier if I
am by myself outside the country doing the things that I want to do. So, I
haven’t had much resistance from my parents to my living in Africa.
Li
Hangwei: I think you are lucky for having such open-minded
parents. After I told my father that I wanted to go to Ghana for a few months,
he said that if he had known that I wanted to go to Africa, he would not have
paid for my studies in Europe and would not have allowed me to leave the
country. I had to spend a lot of time to bring my parents around to see things
my way.
As I just said, I think a lot of people within
China have a stereotypical image of Africa as disease- and famine-ridden. So I
think many parents would be worried if their child were to go to Africa. They
would especially be concerned about issues of marriage if their child fell
under this “leftover woman” label, perhaps thinking that finding a respectable
boyfriend in Africa would be hard for her.
Wang Yuan and I have spent far less time Africa
than Xiaoqing has, so Xiaoqing can you tell us whether or not you were able to
persuade your parents that coming to Africa was a good decision? And do your
parents pressure you in terms of marriage?
Yue
Xiaoqing: My situation is a bit different because I didn’t
insist on coming to South Africa after graduation. What happened was that the
job that I applied for after finishing college was one in which employees were
dispatched abroad, and the first choice for a potential posting that I got was
to go to South Africa. I agreed to come to South Africa because I thought that
South Africa wasn’t the typical “Africa” that people have in mind when they
think of the continent. So when I was preparing to come, I reasoned with my
parents in this way and told them that I wouldn’t go to other African
countries.
I did later apply to work in other African
countries, however. My supervisor at that time was concerned about the safety
of women employees so I didn’t need to go these other countries, but I took the
initiative to apply to go there anyway because I thought it would be interesting.
I didn’t tell my parents about this, though. I also
didn’t tell them about the time I got sick with malaria, which I mentioned
earlier. I also haven’t told them about the time when I was robbed in China. I
don’t want to worry them.
As for marriage, I think things with my family are
now much better than they were before. My parents are definitely concerned but
they no longer nag me about it. In the past, whenever I had a birthday, my
mother would always say, “I wish you an early marriage” or something like that.
This year, however, she sent me a message wishing me success in my career. I
think my parents have given up on urging me to get married. [Laughter.]
Li
Hangwei: That’s a big change. [Laughter.]
Yue
Xiaoqing: I think my mother is still rather open-minded,
though. She has always said that since marriage is a lifelong commitment, the
most important thing is that I find the right person. So she doesn’t put a lot
of pressure on me.
Li
Hangwei: I think this issue of “leftover women” is
interesting, but it also engenders a feeling of helplessness. The phrase itself
has a Made In China aspect to it, and shows how there are still significant
differences between Chinese and Western values. For example, the women that I
have met in the UK — even if single at 40 — don’t feel as though they have been
“left over.” The people around them respect them and give them space and
freedom. They consider being single as an individual lifestyle choice. What do
you think about this?
Wang
Yuan: Xiaoqing, why don’t you speak first?
Yue
Xiaoqing: OK. I
think there’s some awkwardness whenever I meet some Chinese friends or clients,
as they think that I shouldn’t be single at my age and should be married and
have children. My interactions with South Africans, on the other hand, are more
interesting. Most of them won’t ask you whether or not you are married but
they’ll ask whether or nor you have children, perhaps because many people here
have children but are not necessarily married. That sort of situation would be
inconceivable to many Chinese people.
Many of my Chinese friends are women who have
chosen not to get married. I don’t think there’s any problem with this life
choice. Perhaps because of this, I don’t really pay attention to what other
people say about my marital status.
Li
Hangwei: Wang Yuan, what about you?
Wang
Yuan: I don’t think that I have faced this problem. I haven’t been called a
“leftover woman” because I am still young. [Laughter.] Of course, maybe I’ll
face this problem in the future, but I’ll deal with it if and when it happens.
I think that if a person has chosen how to live and what makes them happy, then
other people should respect that choice. The choices that people make are their
own and no one should pressure anyone else.
Li
Hangwei: Yes, I agree with Wang Yuan. I’ve also been
noticing that in this age of globalization an increasing number of young
Chinese are choosing to leave China to seek opportunities abroad. And they
don’t only go to developed countries — many of my friends are interested in
going to Africa. Of course, this is only my personal observation.
At the national level, China has been Africa’s
largest trading partner for the past four years. Also, I recently read a report by Deloitte that said that Chinese construction companies are now undertaking
about one-third of the infrastructure projects European and American
contractors are building in Africa, so there’s a lot of potential in this area.
I think that many Chinese people will choose to go
to Africa in the future. What advice do you have for young Chinese women who
want to go to Africa?
Wang
Yuan: I encourage women to come. I’ve interviewed many Chinese companies
operating here and when I ask them how many women employees they have, they all
respond saying that around 10 of their workers are women — even if they have a
workforce of several hundred or several thousand people. There are very few
Chinese women here, so regardless of whether you want to come to develop your
career or get married [laughter], I encourage you to come.
Li
Hangwei: To balance the corporate sex ratio?
Wang
Yuan: Yes. I don’t think they’ll face any significant difficulties here, as
long as they’re careful about their safety.
Li
Hangwei: Xiaoqing, do you have any advice for Chinese
women that want to go to Africa?
Yue
Xiaoqing: I think that besides what Wang Yuan said, working
here as a woman is no different from what men experience. Also, coming to
Africa is no different from going to any other country — as soon as you decide
that you will leave home and leave those you care about, you will have to
exercise independence and endure a lot of pressure, especially mental and
emotional pressure.
Also, I think that Africa is more suited to young
people who are willing to take risks because while more developed regions are
better organized in many respects and have better material standards of living,
the regulatory red tape in those countries is also more restricting. So
although Chinese students who are studying abroad can get better-paying, more
stable jobs if they choose to go to developed countries, they will have more
space to fully realize themselves and reach their potential in developing
countries such as African countries.
So I think strong minded, independent women should
consider coming to Africa. Regardless of whether or not you eventually decide
to stay, I’m convinced that your experience here will be an unforgettable one.
Wang Yuan: I
agree.
Li
Hangwei: Regrettably, we’ve reached the end of the
program. As usual, we’ll recommend some books, websites and movies related to
the discussion to our listeners. I think both of you might be feminists and
agree that gender bias impedes women’s success across the world. So my
recommendation is Facebook Chief Operating Officer Sheryl Sandberg’s book Lean In.
This book is currently very popular. In the book, Sandberg encourages women
worldwide to believe in themselves, to not let anyone else define who they are
and to courageously pursue their goals. I think this book fits in with our
discussion.
Winslow, are you there?
Winslow: I’m
still here, yes.
Li
Hangwei: Yes, you’re still alive. What is your
recommendation for our listeners this episode?
Winslow: So,
I have a recommendation — I feel a little bad about this because I’m breaking
my rule for this. Generally for my recommendations I like to suggest something
that I’ve actually read, but now I’m going to recommend something that I
haven’t read all the way through — check it out.
These dudes from the RAND Corporation wrote this
China-Africa report called Chinese Engagement in Africa: Drivers, Reactionsand Implications for US Policy.
It’s by Larry Hanauer and Lyle Morris. The reason that I’m recommending this is
because I know Lyle personally and he asked me to share this new report. I think
it came out last week or two weeks ago. He’s actually a really cool guy and
he’s going to bring signed copies of the report, which I’m going to read after
this podcast. It’s 173 pages. He’s going to bring autographed copies of this
report to this China-Africa Happy Hour that I’m doing on Friday. I have not
read the report, but a friend of the pod Ambassador David Shinn consulted on it
and he personally told me that it’s a really good report. So I’m recommending
it and I’m reading it tonight.
Li
Hangwei: Thank you so much Winslow. That’s really
interesting and I will definitely check it out. How about Dr. Kalu. Dr. Kalu,
how are you?
Dr.
Kalu: I’m good, thank you.
Li
Hangwei: So what’s your recommendation?
Dr.
Kalu: So following in the example set by Winslow, I’m actually recommending
something that I have not read — but I have a valid reason for not reading it.
It’s actually in Chinese and I don’t read Chinese. It’s an article by Professor
Li Anshan about the evolution of the discourse of China-Africa since the 1990s. So it’s just a look at the
literature that’s come out on China-Africa relations over the past 24 years.
The article itself is in Chinese, and I thought that since we’re doing a podcast
in Chinese, it would be a good recommendation just carrying along that theme.
Li
Hangwei: I think that must be great because I know
Professor Li Anshan and he’s definitely one of the best professors in
China-Africa relations.
Now, what about our two other guests — the
legendary goddesses of learning — what would you like to recommend to everyone?
Xiaoqing, why don’t you go first?
Yue
Xiaoqing: First, I haven’t had much time to read books
recently, but I do read short articles on the internet. I think many listeners
would have read the article I would like to recommend, which has been widely
circulated on the internet and is titled What is the value of academicsuccess?. I remember
that an MIT graduate wrote it. The article talks about how Chinese students
often find it easy to succeed in their academic studies, but don’t have a
strong sense of happiness and accomplishment in their lives or at work. I think
this article is insightful, and it resonates with me.
Now, I have to say, my lifestyle focuses on doing
what I like, and not being a god of learning. I am not a god of learning.
Li
Hangwei: Yes,
perhaps I have stereotypical ideas that all those who’ve studied at Harvard and
Cambridge are gods of learning.
Wang
Yuan: “God of learning” is a terrible phrase, please don’t use it again.
[Laughter.]
Li
Hangwei: OK, I was wrong. I thought it was a compliment
because it means that you are very hardworking and very talented —Wang Yuan,
did you want to say something?
Wang
Yuan: Why don’t you finish first? It’s not important.
Li
Hangwei: I want to hear your thoughts about “god of
learning.” Why shouldn’t that phrase be used?
Wang
Yuan: Because I’m not exceptionally gifted in terms of academics. And I think
everyone has his or her own merits. I like being called a goddess [laughter] —
everyone likes a goddess. But calling someone a “god of learning” creates a
certain distance, so please don’t use it.
Li
Hangwei: I think you are modest. Someone who can get into
Harvard is obviously academically talented. Of course contributions to society,
work experience and practical ability are important, but if you lacked academic
achievement you wouldn’t have gotten in.
Wang
Yuan: OK, you can continue talking like this if you want.
Li
Hangwei: OK. Your recommendations?
Wang Yuan: I want to recommend a book called West with the Night.
This is actually a book that a friend recommended to me. I think it’s an
excellent book. It was written by Beryl Markham, an English woman. She writes
about the time she spent in Kenya with her father in the 1920s and 1930s. She
left Britain for Kenya with her father when she was very young. In Kenya, she
trained in horse racing and learned how to fly a plane. She was a very
independent woman. In the book she describes spending her childhood in Africa,
including the activities she undertook while there, including hunting,
horse-racing and interacting and befriending the natives. The book also
contains many of her unique thoughts on many issues. I found that I really
liked reading it.
Li
Hangwei: Thank you both for your recommendations.
Listeners, if you have any opinions or suggestions
for our show, we welcome you to tweet our hosts Winslow and Dr. Kalu; Winslow’s
Twitter handle is @Winslow_R, and Dr. Kalu’s Twitter handle is @NkemEKalu.
If you want to hear more from Xiaoqing and Wang
Yuan, you can search for Xiaoqing’s Sina Weibo account using her China
cellphone number 135-0960-7227. We also encourage listeners to follow Wang Yuan
on her Sina Weibo account wangyuannie, where they can ask her about China
House’s initiatives to encourage relocation to Africa.
Now, at the end of today’s program, I’d like to
thank Wang Yuan and Xiaoqing for participating in our program. I know that
living in Africa as a woman means facing many hurdles, so we are grateful that
Wang Yuan and Xiaoqing were candid and direct in discussing their experiences
in Africa. I think true freedom comes from emotional courage, and I hope Wang
Yuan and Xiaoqing will continue to be courageous in this way.
Dear listeners, we’ll meet again next time.
Transcription
李杭蔚：大家早上好，欢迎各位收听Cowries and Rice播客，我是这一期节目的嘉宾主持杭蔚。常收听我们节目的听众朋友大概会知道，我们之前的节目都是英文节目，今天的节目是我们第一期中文节目，大家不用担心你们的主持人Winslow。先让他照常从美国华盛顿跟大家打个招呼吧。Hi Winslow! How are you?
Winslow： I'm
quite well. The weather is really nice today, so I'm hoping to finish this
podcast and go outside.
李杭蔚：今天的老朋友Kalu博士博士也会如常作客我们的节目。Kalu博士一直以来都致力于中非研究。Dr. Kalu, greetings from London. How was your week?
Dr. Kalu： It
was really good, thank you very much. How are you?
李杭蔚：I'm fine, thanks. This is going to be our first
Chinese episode. I hope you won't feel uncomfortable hearing us speak Chinese
all the time. But I have great news for you: we have amazing guests this time
and I'm sure this will be an awesome episode!
Winslow：I
agree!
李杭蔚：OK, 我们的节目目前正在努力扩大全球范围内的听众群，所以今后我们的节目语言就不再局限于英文，还将有中文和法语。
首先感谢我们的赞助商African
Development Jobs以及Africa Daily。 African Development Jobs是一个由Nina Oduro创办的网站，旨在帮助求职者寻找在非洲的工作机会，这也是我所知道的在有关非洲就业和发展这个领域当中最好的网站之一。
The Africa Daily是一个提供关于中非新闻和学术资讯的英文信息平台，它的中文版是非洲365，该网站致力于传递现有关于非洲国家最新动态的信息，加深中文读者对于非洲的了解和兴趣，希望能辅佐中非合作的发展大方向，鼓励大众对非洲进一步交流往来，以及推动更多中小外向型发展企业在非投资。
那三八妇女节刚过，这一期节呢，我们得聊一聊女性话题。当然请不要想歪，我们不是午夜栏目，我们要聊的是亚洲女性在非洲这个话题。事实上，这个话题我们上一期节目已经聊过了，请到的嘉宾都是中非研究的学者。今天呢，我们的节目请到的是比学者更年轻一些的实践家。那我有预感今天的节目将会是一出大戏。为什么这么说呢？因为三个女人一台戏。今天除了我跟Kalu博士以外，请到的另外两位嘉宾也是女生。我们四个女人做一期节目，我觉得Winslow他就可以在华盛顿好好听我们唱戏了。
那今天，我请到的两位嘉宾有一个共同点--她们都是学霸女神。她们到底有多学霸呢？她们呢一个是从哈佛大学毕业，另外一个呢是剑桥毕业。其实在很多人眼里她们都是不走寻常路的女生：我们的嘉宾王媛从哈佛大学肯尼迪学院毕业后去了肯尼亚的内罗毕，目前就职于中非卓越基金，同时还是欧盟中非研究项目的研究员，并且还发起了一个社区型NGO和公益组织叫做China House (中南屋)。另外一个嘉宾岳晓庆呢，也非常的不简单，大学毕业以后就被公司派到南非，一去就是6年。6年之后，当她在公司有着很不错的发展空间和薪资时，她突然辞职了，去了英国的剑桥大学攻读工商管理硕士，MBA念完之后，她又毅然决然地回到了南非。
好的，那现在我们就欢迎王媛和岳晓庆作客我们的节目。王媛，先从肯尼亚跟大家打个招呼吧，顺便跟大家介绍一下自己。
王媛：大家好，我是王媛。杭蔚你好，谢谢你。对，我现在在肯尼亚，远远地向大家发来问候，这边一切都很好，天气也很好，非常暖和。
李杭蔚：非常暖和。
王媛：对啊，四季如春。我做一个简单的介绍吧，我之前从本科毕业之后去了肯尼迪政府学院。两年的学习之后，我对非洲产生了浓厚的兴趣，于是，毕业之后一张单程机票拖着3个行李箱来到了肯尼亚，然后在这边开始找工作。七八个月的时间这样过去了，我终于找到一份自己比较喜欢的，就是做中非相关的研究，现在我就一直在自己的小岗位上一直做着。
李杭蔚：真棒，好感谢王媛。那晓庆，你在南非最近怎么样呢？我不太清楚你具体是在南非的哪个城市，也非常欢迎跟我们的听众介绍一下你的近况。
岳晓庆：大家好，我目前生活在南非的约翰内斯堡，但是因为工作关系，我也会在南非国内其他一些城市出差。我的大概情况是我大学毕业后就被公司外派到南非工作，在2011年的时候，我辞职了，去了剑桥读工商管理硕士，就是刚才蔚蔚给大家介绍的。去年8月份左右，从剑桥回到了南非，回来之后首先在一个朋友的公司，因为我朋友当时在拓展非洲其他国家的业务，因为他不在南非期间我就帮他管理了他公司在南非的事务，刚好我自己也学习一下公司的管理运营经验，一直到去年年底。
目前，我自己也在筹建自己的公司，我自己的业务主要在两个方面，一方面是帮助南非本地的公司采购中国的设备。另外一个是我现在正在和朋友合作的，在筹划一个电子商务网站，这个产品主要是关于水处理，因为非洲大家都知道，水的资源和水的健康使用是一个问题，这两方面目前的进展都还不错。
李杭蔚：好的，很高兴知道你们一切安好，知道你们都是学以致用。王媛跟晓庆的背景都是非常有意思。首先我有一个问题想要问王媛，你是从哈佛肯尼迪学院毕业，其实是我的dream
school，我知道你的能力也非常强，所以我很肯定不管是在美国还是回国你都能够找到很好的工作。你能告诉我们为什么毕业后选择去非洲呢？非洲对于你来说到底有着怎样独特的魅力？
王媛：谢谢，事实上这个问题我也一直在问我自己我当初为什么来到非洲，当初为什么就一张单程机票这么没脑子地就过来了。
李杭蔚：后悔吗？
王媛：一点都不后悔，说实话。就是让我给你一个完整的答案我也不知道，我只能说当时觉得身上还没有特别多的负担，还算年轻，就想趁这个机会去世界各地走一走，我也只想在年轻的时候走遍非洲的54个国家，爬过乞力马扎罗，然后看过北非和撒哈拉以南的非洲，各个地方都看一看。
李杭蔚：说的我想马上过去。
王媛：你看, 来吧。如果说需要在我人生中有一段时间能够长久地在这样一个没有完全被物质所侵袭的一个世界这样平静的地方度过一段比较长的时候呢，那可能就是刚毕业这段年轻的时候，所以我就跑过来了，没有什么特别大的、特别多的想法。
李杭蔚：像很多人都说的，可能很多事情你年轻的时候不去做，可能等你到了中年没有勇气再去做了。我知道晓庆跟王媛虽然都是顶尖的名校毕业，但是其实两个人的背景是略有不同的，之前我也提到晓庆是大学毕业直接去了南非，一待就待了6年，之后又辞职选择了继续深造。那晓庆，你当时为什么选择辞职呢？剑桥毕业以后又为什么选择再回到南非？
岳晓庆：辞职其实很简单，因为辞职就是因为当时不喜欢自己当时的生活和工作状态，因为我从小到大都是一个比较典型的理工科学生，包括我后来从事的工作也是在ICT行业，我的工作内容也是偏技术和解决方案。我那个时候的生活状态就是大家现在说的IT男，但是由于是在南非，可能多了一些地域文化色彩的元素，但是基调还是一样的，所以，可能因为这样，生活上我觉得自己比较拘谨，我的生活也比较单调和乏味。
当时选择MBA也是因为这个课程本身涉及到的领域是我之前工作中很难涉及到，比较缺乏的，就包括那些财会、金融、公司管理。我特别有兴趣去学习一些新的东西，去拓宽自己的知识领域。选择剑桥肯定是因为它的历史底蕴和文化的氛围，但是我自己从来没有想过以后要待在英国。
一方面本身我就很喜欢南非，从他的气候到人文文化，气候不用说，我觉得约堡是我待过的所有城市中气候最好的，这边的阳光会让你每天的心情都很明媚。人文上，南非本身是一个特别多元化的国家，可能跟他的殖民和移民历史都有关系，当地人都很热情和友好。他一方面有殖民者带来条例性，也有非洲大陆自己本身带来的热情和奔放，可能有些原始的东西。英国的气候我不喜欢，说人和人之间很礼貌、很周到，但是我觉得有一种距离感。所以，我觉得对我来讲，回南非是必然的，就是一个不需要解释的选择。
李杭蔚：就是我们常说的是真爱。其实我现在在伦敦，刚才你聊到英国的感受，其实我也有颇为相似的一些感受，很高兴听到你非常享受在彩虹之国的生活。我觉得你跟王媛的经历都是非常有趣的，我也很好奇你们各自的经历，比如说王媛在美国读书的经历，还有晓庆在剑桥念MBA的经历是如何影响着你们现在的工作和生活的。王媛先说起吧。
王媛：在美国读书怎么说呢，我觉得美国本来就是一个非常多元化的社会，肯尼迪学院有来自80多个国家的学生，他自己也是一个非常注重多元化的小社区。在那边，我学会跟很多人打交道，交各种各样的朋友。 然后现在像我在肯尼亚，从贫民窟到现在平时一起交往的世行，朋友到处都有。三教九流，各方面，艺术家都有。我觉得这给我的人生是很大的一种多元化。还有，在肯尼迪学院认识了很多朋友，来到内罗毕之后很多时候都可以跟他们联系，我们也有自己的校友会可以一起出去玩。
李杭蔚：哈佛大学在肯尼亚还有校友会啊？
王媛：对啊，我们经常会组织活动一起出去玩，如果不是在哈佛里面的，还有其他的各方面都可以找到朋友，这是我觉得最重要的一个。
李杭蔚：拓宽了你的交际圈，你也乐于去跟不同的人交往，是吗？
王媛：对，算是。你说我在学校学到的什么统计学、经济学，说白了现在都忘的差不多了，但是跟人打交道的那些东西，还有怎么交朋友，允许我在任何一个城市、任何一个奇怪的地方生活下去的那份自信是不可多得的。
李杭蔚：我也觉得是非常难能可贵的。那晓庆，当时在剑桥念书的经历是怎么样影响到你现在的工作的？你刚才说到你想创业，你正好在剑桥念的是工商管理硕士，所以我觉得应该还是息息相关的，对吧？
岳晓庆：没错，我去英国之前其实我没有很长时间在发达国家生活过，所以对我来讲这是一种缺憾，因为当时不确定我会不我会喜欢上在一个发达国家长期生活下去。虽然说之前我可能读MBA之后我先回南非，但是首先这一年让我确定了我自己更加喜欢什么样的生活方式。
MBA这个课程本身就是像我刚才讲的，它本身对我来讲是我之前一个比较空白的知识领域的补充，所以虽然那个时候学习的压力很大，但是我觉得就是这个知识结构现在能够比较完善，自己的综合素质能力也得到了提高。我说我自己以前会觉得比较单调乏味，我的生活除了工作领域之外我就很难找到跟人比较共同的话题，但是我们跟人家说我现在像萬金油一样，我什么都知道一点。
李杭蔚：而且我觉得你特别健谈，口才特别好。
岳晓庆：对，我最近跟人聊天都比较多嘛。
我之前是工科的背景，（但是现在）我比较能很快理解不同的工作，包括我现在打交道的客户来自各个不同的行业，我都很容易跟他们有一些共同的话题。这个对我现在的工作肯定是很有帮助的。
刚才你讲到MBA课程本身一个是对于财务、金融、公司管理这些知识有一个补充，还有就是我当时学习了一些关于创业的课程，也参加了一些创业课程的实践，就是结合之前的工作经验，还有，我刚才谈到刚回南非的时候，我有帮助朋友管理公司的经验，所以我对自己创业可能存在哪些风险和那些问题我有一个比较好的把握。
同时，有一点，对这个东西方公司在运营方式上的差异我觉得我能做到有一个比较好的融合，算是取各家之长。比如说西方企业在制度上本身比较完备和健全，西方企业有很好的管理经验，如果能用于中国公司，但是在某些方面再能结合一下中国企业本身灵活和善于变通的东西，中国企业中那种勤奋的、坚持的元素，比如说加班，我觉得这两者的结合能够帮助一个公司在有条例的情况下创造一种比较好的企业文化。所以，我觉得MBA的整个课程对我的帮助和影响是非常大的。
李杭蔚：好的，我跟你们聊天我也会想起我之前在加纳的生活。我当时也认识了作不同工作的人，我觉得对我的帮助也是非常大的。但是，说到我在加纳的经历，我就不由得想起我当时去的时候，中国人跟加纳人的关系颇为紧张，我去加纳的时候，当时加纳政府正在大力镇压非法挖金，所以说某种程度上而言，这也影响了我在那里的生活。所以，我想问一下两位，中非关系具体到你们所在的国家，就是中国与肯尼亚的关系，中国与南非的关系，是否对你们在那里的生活有一定的影响？王媛先说吧还是。
王媛：其实中国跟肯尼亚的关系挺好，就是让我感觉并没有对我的生活产生特别大的影响。中资企业在这边是越来越多，也可以看到越来越多的小伙伴们过来，但是具体的并没有发现有什么特别不好的政府之间的关系，倒是工作签证越来越难办了。
李杭蔚：原因是什么你知道吗？
王媛：这个就跟美国有点像吧，境外人来到这边可能会抢占他们这边的就业机会，所以工作签难办是一个必然的趋势。
李杭蔚：那晓庆那边是什么样的情况呢？
岳晓庆：刚才这点我跟王媛的看法是一样的，就是工作签或永久居留权这些好像在南非很难办，我听说好像最近有停止中国人申请永久居留权，但我不是特别确定，是小道消息。
其他方面，我个人不觉得中国和南非的关系对我的生活有什么影响。我记得南非和中国建交以来关系就一直不错。因为南非本身是中国在非洲最大的一个贸易国，然后现在又是金砖国家，两国之间互相访问特别多，贸易增长速度也很快。
我个人其实没有签证的问题，因为我是ICT行业，作为特殊人才引进，所以我在南非的签证是没有问题的。我知道南非对他所需要的特殊人才引进和在中国或其他国家投资引进上应该政策是相当开放的，所以我觉得其他方面我也没有什么问题。
李杭蔚：那就好。其实前段时间我也在《中南对话》读了一个叫张卓彦女生的专栏，卓彦其实是王媛的校友，也是哈佛肯尼迪学院毕业的，毕业以后去了南非。她也是在约翰内斯堡，她文章里面有一句话我的印象特别深刻，她写到：非洲不是胆小鬼的归宿，没有人能依靠，幸运的话有人同行，你只能坚强并且更坚强，内心柔软，脊背坚硬。当时我看到这里的时候，我就在想，我一定要问一下王媛跟晓庆，你们在非洲生活和工作期间所面对的最大的困难是什么？怎么克服的？
王媛：还是我先吗？
李杭蔚：好，晓庆先也行，随便。
王媛：晓庆先吧。
岳晓庆：其实我自己不觉得有特别大的困难，因为我的性格就是过去了我就不会太回头看，也不会觉得自己以前经历的事情有那么难，我觉得首先在心理上你不要把自己当做一个弱者，你不要把自己定位在一个女性，你就不会觉得自己面对的是那么大的一个困难。但是有一点，可能生病的时候你会觉得自己比较脆弱，我在非洲有得过一次疟疾，就是我出差的时候不小心被感染了---
李杭蔚：--是去了西非吗？
岳晓庆：没有，我当时去的乌干达，因为很不巧，有一个同事得了疟疾，大家知道疟疾是通过蚊子叮咬传染的，很不幸的我去看他了，很不幸在他们家被他们家蚊子叮了，所以我就被传染了。但是，生病期间还好，因为很多同事朋友都会很好地照顾我，但是就是因为那个对身体的长期伤害是比较大的，所以有一年多的时间其实我的身体都比较虚弱，就是总是很想睡觉，觉得自己精神不好，当时很多的计划都推迟了，比如说上MBA，其实我2009年就开始计划，但是我到2011年才去上的学。所以，我现在会比以前更注意锻炼身体，保证自己身体状况良好。身体是革命的本钱。
李杭蔚：这也算是因祸得福了。
岳晓庆：对，可能这点就是我唯一觉得你无法预知的困难。
李杭蔚：其实我觉得不管是在国内、国外、亚洲、非洲、欧洲，我觉得人的一生当中都会遇到各种各样的困难，我觉得足够坚强就可以能够面对一切。那王媛呢，你有没有遇到过什么觉得自己是比较难克服的。
王媛：有啊，我觉得最开始来的时候没有小伙伴这一点实在令我觉得太孤寂了。之前的我们那个小村也叫剑桥--波士顿对面的那个村子,就是哈佛在的地方--当时我、卓彦还有其他一些朋友，我们都是非常好的。就是下了课可以打电话，晚上可以一起约出去玩，就有一帮这样的朋友，已经习惯了这样非常舒适的生活。结果过来之后，想要再翻电话号码，没有任何一个人可以打。发微信大家都有时差，发的话别人很晚才能回，我就觉好惨啊。这是我当时最不能克服的。
李杭蔚：所以你跟那个黄泓翔同学，在一起做《中南对话》是吗？
王媛：对，一定要多带一些小朋友。
李杭蔚：黄泓翔把那个叫“人贩子计划”。
王媛：他用的词语一般比较屌丝。
李杭蔚：所以你们现在也希望更多中国优秀的年轻人能够过去，对吧？
王媛：我不能说优秀吧，我只能说三教九流，各方面，大家各有所长，来这边八仙过海，各显神通，大家一起玩。我们今天终于建立起了一个内罗毕大家一起玩的小群，年轻人可以一起交流，这个感觉让我觉得好很多，比之前已经有了很大的改善了。
李杭蔚：好，那我祝你们在那边玩的开心，有时间我也去拜访你们。
王媛：快来快来。
李杭蔚：好，我也想问一下，你们的日常生活中，通常觉得比较满足和快乐的瞬间是什么？
王媛：比较快乐的，就是我找了半天工作，一直在家里蹲着，好不容易一份offer来的时候，那个快乐是非常快乐的。还有，比如说好朋友一起过来看我，都会觉得很好。把自己的非常messed
up 的life sort out这种感觉也很好。都是很小的瞬间吧，生活就是这样。我非常喜欢海明威那句话"The
world is a fucked up place, but it’s worth fighting for。" 我总是把它改成：这是一个非常糟糕、非常操蛋的世界，但是我觉得是非常值得去生活的worth
living for。能够值得我去生活的就是生活中特别小的那些一点点的瞬间吧，就这样。
李杭蔚：好，我就想起来我在非洲的时候，我觉得当时我的幸福感挺高的，很容易满足，很容易觉得很快乐，我不知道晓庆是不是也是这样。
岳晓庆：没错啊，其实南非比较好，我比较喜欢南非的一点是这边户外活动的范围特别多, 有很多的活动，比如说你可以去爬山、郊游，前端时间我们去"Cape Sliding"，这边特别好，你从瀑布上滑过去，你可以看到那个水面上有一条很长的彩虹，特别漂亮。像我们出差的时候，周末我都会开车出去看看自然风景，爬爬山，我觉得这些是非常有意思的。
我现在的工作，可以接触到各种各样的人，接触到不同的行业，他们会给你讲很多很新鲜的事情，这些我都会觉得很开心。
还有，我觉得包括王媛他们现在做的，其实很多像NGO的这些，包括我自己以后选择的这个行业，还有我将来的生活计划，我觉得就是一个长期的计划，我希望能够帮助更多的人改变他们现在的生活状态，提高他们生活的标准和质量.
所以，就是这些是可以证明我存在的价值，我觉得这些是可以让我觉得特别开心的，但是，因为我现在做的事情还有一些不确定性，所以在这里我就先不多说了。
李杭蔚：好，其实我觉得在非洲生活和工作不像很多人想象的那样，就是觉得很悲惨、很可怜、很辛苦，可能人们对非洲有刻板印象吧。
我还想跟大家分享一个昨天晚上我跟我室友的小对话，昨晚我在厨房，我的外国室友就问我杭蔚你是不是25了？我说是啊，怎么了？我室友就告诉我，她刚刚读了一篇关于中国剩女的文章，因为在中国，人们把25岁以上依然未婚的女性称为剩女，然后我室友就跟我感叹说李杭蔚原来你就是传说中的剩女。
其实我个人来说一直都很反对给别人贴标签，但是我跟室友的对话让我不由得想起，事实上对于在非洲的中国女性而言，可能面临的一大挑战就是如何说服父母，就是说在适婚的年龄独自去非洲闯荡自己的事业，所以，能请两位嘉宾分享一下自己的经验吗？我很好奇你们是不是成功地说服了你们的父母？还是王媛先说吧。
王媛：我觉得我的适婚年龄还要再等三四年吧，我觉得自己还小--当然也不小了，但是觉得自己还小，我也是这样跟我爸妈说的。他们当然希望我能够安安定定在国内有一份工作，找一个好人家，但是他们更关注的是我自己过的幸福。或许，把我放在外面，让我自己去做自己想做的事情，他们理解我，他们会觉得这样我更幸福一些。所以，我倒没有受到来自家长那边特别多的阻碍。
李杭蔚：所以我觉得你很幸运，因为你有非常开明的父母。你知道吗，我当时要去加纳，其实就待几个月，我爸知道了，他就说早知道就不送你出国念书了，早知道你要去非洲就不让你出国留学了。当时就是花了非常多的时间去说服我的父母。
其实比起晓庆，我跟王媛在非洲待的时间可以说还不够长。
因为我刚才也说到，国内很多人都对非常有非常刻板的印象，认为非洲充满了疾病、灾荒，所以当自己的亲人前往非洲工作的时候。我相信还是比较多家长会担心。尤其是顶着剩女的标签，所以家长可能会比较着急婚恋的问题，因为他们可能会觉得在非洲找男朋友太难了，也不太靠谱。那晓庆能否告诉我们你是否成功地说服了你的家人，然后你是否依然有来自这方面的压力？
岳晓庆：其实我觉得还好啊现在。就是刚毕业的时候，其实我不是一定要来南非的，但是我申请的那个职位就是要派海外的职位，当时可能南非是我拿到的第一个选择，我说无所谓啊。
因为南非其实也不算特别典型的非洲，我当时就告诉父母，我说不用去非洲其他国家，就这么来了。
不过后来去非洲其他国家也是我自己申请去的。我当时的工作主管处于对女生的爱护，当时我也不用去，但是我觉得比较有意思，所以我有申请去。但是这些事情我基本上都不会我爸妈，包括我刚才说的我被感染过疟疾，还有我在南非被打劫过，基本上都没有告诉我爸妈，就是不想让他们担心。
就刚才讲的婚恋问题，我父母肯定着急，但是他们现在已经不催我了。像我妈以前我过生日的时候都说祝我早日成家什么的，她今年给我发的消息是说希望我事业有成。我觉得我妈已经放弃了。
李杭蔚：有很大的转变。
岳晓庆：不过我妈还是比较开明的，她一直就说既然是一辈子的事情，那你就要感觉好了才行，所以她不会给我太大压力的。
李杭蔚：那就好我觉得其实剩女这个问题是一个很有趣但又很无奈的话题。因为剩女这个词也有中国制造的感觉，我觉得在价值观方面中国和西方国家差别还是很大的。比如说我在英国遇到的女性，哪怕已经单身到40岁了，她自己也不觉得是被剩下的，周围人也会给她更多的尊重和自由的空间，就是认为单身不过也就是个人选择的一个生活方式，我不知道你们是怎么看的。
王媛：晓庆先吗？
岳晓庆：好，那我先讲吧，我觉得这个问题首先在面对一些中国朋友或客户的时候，有时候会有一点尴尬。他们会觉得因为我年龄已经不小了，会觉得你不早点结婚生孩子，你还这么折腾干嘛呢。
南非人比较有意思，南非很多人不会问你结婚没有，但是会问你有小孩没有，因为这边很多人可能生孩子，但是不一定会结婚。像这种，可能对中国人来讲也是简直不可思议的。
但是，我身边其实有很多选择不结婚的中国女性朋友。我自己也不认为这种生活状态会有什么问题，所以，可能就是因为这样，我也不会太介意别人怎么看怎么说。
李杭蔚：王媛呢？
王媛：我可能还没有面临到这个问题，也没有被人说过是剩女，因为还小。当然之后也有可能面临，那就是之后的情况了。现在我感觉如果个人有选择个人生活的方式，怎么做，自己开心就好，不要给周围人压力了。别人怎么选择是人家的事情。
李杭蔚：王媛说的很对。我现在也注意到一个现象，就是在全球化的时代，越来越多的中国青年选择走出国门，而且已经不再局限于去发达国家，我也看到我周围的很多朋友对走进非洲非常感兴趣--当然这是从个人层面上来说。
那国家层面呢，中国已经连续4年成为非洲最大的贸易伙伴国。最近我也读了一个德勤公司公司的报告。报告说，中国公司在非洲承建的大型基础设施项目，已经约为欧美公司承建总量的1/3，所以说非洲市场的潜力还是非常巨大的。
我也相信未来会有更多的中国人走进非洲。对于那些想要去非洲发展的年轻女性而言，我们两位嘉宾有什么建议呢？
王媛：我在这边采访过许多中国公司，其中有一个问题问他们，你们公司有没有女性员工，很多公司是总人数有2000多人，几百人、上千人的公司，他们的女性员工只有10个人。我就觉得其实这边年轻女孩子应该可以多过来，就是这边的女孩子真的很少，请多过来，无论是从个人发展还是从婚姻考虑，也都可以考虑过来。
李杭蔚：平衡一下是吧？
王媛：对啊，差不多就这样吧，保护好自己就好了，我觉得没有什么大问题。
李杭蔚：晓庆有什么建议呢？
岳晓庆：我觉得除了刚才王媛说的那一点，其他方面跟男性没有什么不一样。来非洲跟去别的国家和别的地方也没有什么不一样，反正就是既然选择离开了家，离开亲人，就意味着你自己要独立去承受更多，尤其是精神和感情上。
而且，非洲可能更适合具有冒险精神的年轻人，因为在发达国家各种体制都比较完善，物质生活水平也比较高，但是我觉得我自己的生活经验来说，条条框框的限制也特别多。所以，在发达国家可能中国留学生更多的毕业之后就是争取得到一份收入不错的稳定的工作，但是在非洲，正是因为可能某些方面有不足，在这种环境下你才能更感觉到自己的价值和更大的发挥空间。
所以，我觉得够坚强独立的女孩子，你们都可以考虑来非洲，因为不管最终你选择离开或者留下，我相信这段生活都是你这辈子特别难忘的一段回忆。
王媛：同意。
李杭蔚：其实你们两个或多或少都是女性主义者。我觉得在这个世界上性别的偏见是阻碍很多女性取得成功的因素。而且这种现象可以说是遍布全球的。不知不觉到了我们节目的尾声，还是老样子，我们会向我们的听众朋友们推荐一些相关的书籍、网站和电影，今天我想向各位推荐Facebook首席运营官，叫做谢丽尔•桑德伯格写的一本书，叫作《向前一步》，这本书现在很火，她是鼓励全球的女性勇敢地追求自己的目标，告诉大家不管在世界任何地方，作为女性都要自信，都不需要让别人去定义自己，我也觉得这很贴切我们的主题。我也想问一下我们的Winslow:
Winslow are you there?
Winslow: I am still here, yes.
Li Hangwei: Yes, you’re still alive. What is your
recommendation for our listeners this episode?
Winslow: So, I have a recommendation — I feel a little bad
about this because I’m breaking my rule for this. Generally for my
recommendations I like to recommend something that I’ve actually read, but now
I’m going to recommend something that I haven’t read all the way through —
check it out. These dudes from the RAND Corporation wrote this China-Africa
report called Chinese Engagement in Africa: Drivers, Reactions and Implications
for US Policy. It’s by Larry Hanauer and Lyle Morris. The reason that I’m
recommending this is because I know Lyle personally and he asked me to share
this new report. I think it came out last week or two weeks ago. He’s actually
a really cool guy and he’s going to bring signed copies of the report, which
I’m going to read after this podcast. It’s 173 pages. He’s going to bring
autographed copies of this report to this China-Africa Happy Hour that I’m
doing on Friday. I have not read the report, but a friend of the pod Ambassador
David Shinn consulted on it and he personally told me that it’s a really good
report. So I’m recommending it and I’m reading it tonight.
Li Hangwei: Thank you so much Winslow. That’s really
interesting and I will definitely check it out. How about Dr. Kalu. Dr. Kalu,
how are you?
Dr. Kalu: I’m good, thank you.
Li Hangwei: So what’s your recommendation?
Dr. Kalu: So following in the example set by Winslow, I’m
actually recommending something that I have not read — but I have a valid
reason for not reading it. It’s actually in Chinese and I don’t read Chinese.
It’s an article by Professor Li Anshan about the evolution of the discourse of
China-Africa since the 1990s. So it’s just a look at the literature that’s come
out on China-Africa relations over the past 24 years. The article itself is in
Chinese, and I thought that since we’re doing a podcast in Chinese, it would be
a good recommendation just carrying along that theme.
Li Hangwei: I think that must be great because I know
Professor Li Anshan and he’s definitely one of the best professors in
China-Africa relations.
李杭蔚：那我不知道我们的两位女嘉宾，传说中的学霸女神有什么想向大家推荐的呢？这次先问晓庆吧。
岳晓庆：首先，我最近已经没有太多时间看书了，但是我会看一些网络上的文章，就短篇的。我想很多朋友可能都应该看过，最近网络上流传很广的一篇文章叫做《学习成绩有多大价值》。我记得是一个麻省理工毕业的中国学生写的，就说中国学生往往在学业上容易领先，但是在后面的生活和工作上的幸福感和成就感却并不强。我想这篇文章可能在某些方面会给大家一些启发。我个人是觉得很有共鸣的，所以我要选择我自己现在喜欢的生活方式，而不是做一个学霸，而且我也不是一个学霸。
李杭蔚：对，可能是我也有刻板的印象，就是觉得去哈佛的、去剑桥的都是学霸。
王媛：学霸这个词太可怕了，千万不要再用了。
李杭蔚：好好好，我错了。在我这里我觉得它是一个褒义词，我觉得它可以证明你非常用功，非常优秀。王媛你说。
王媛：你先说完，我没有什么说的。
李杭蔚：我是想听你说一下学霸，为什么不能用学霸这个词呢？
王媛：因为我并不是学习特别好啊，而且我没有觉得自己学习非常擅长。我觉得各有所长吧。就是大家用女神我很喜欢，女神大家会觉得很好，但是学霸会给人距离感，能不能不要用。
李杭蔚：我觉得是你比较谦虚，其实我觉得能上哈佛的当然成绩是很好。当然，其他的因素也很重要，比如说社会交往能力、实践能力，但是我觉得学习成绩当然肯定你也是差不到哪去的。
王媛：OK，如果你再这样继续说下去的话，就好像我刚才那样说是为了。。。让你这样说。
李杭蔚：好，你的推荐？
王媛：我推荐一本书叫《夜航西飞》，这个其实是我朋友推荐给我的，我觉得非常好，就是Beryl
Markham写的，一个英国的女士。写的是20世纪二三十年代的肯尼亚，她当时很小就跟着父亲来到了肯尼亚，她肯尼亚训练赛马和学习驾驶飞机，她是一个非常非常独立的女性，她在书中就描写她在非洲渡过的童年，他狩猎啊，与当地土著人额交往啊、情谊啊，训练赛马什么的。里面有很多她自己的思考，我看过之后我觉得是我非常喜欢的一本书。
李杭蔚：好的，非常感谢各位的推荐。各位听众朋友们如果对我们的节目有什么意见或者建议，也欢迎Twitter上@我们的主持人Winslow和Kalu博士。那Winslow的Twitter账号呢是Winslow下划线再加一个大写的R。我再重复一遍：Winslow下划线再加一个大写的R。 Dr.
Kalu他的Twitter账号是nkemekalu, nkemekalu。
那想继续关注王媛和晓庆的朋友可以在新浪微博上搜索晓庆的国内手机号13509607227来关注她。也欢迎@王媛的微博帐号wangyuannie咨询她关于中南屋非洲人才引进计划。我再重复一遍王媛的微博账号是wangyuannie,
就是王媛的全拼再加上nie.
那今天，节目的最后我想说，我知道作为亚洲女性在非洲生活也许意味着面临更多的关卡和障碍，感谢王媛和晓庆作客我们的节目，感谢她们开放和坦诚地跟我们聊她们在非洲的所见、所闻、所想。我想真正的自由需要内心的勇气，我在这里祝福王媛和晓庆能够一直勇敢下去。
各位朋友，我们下期再见。
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